Octave in Universities

[Larry Blodgett]

Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version).
I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source.
He asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would
check with the list.
I was under the impression that there were numerous universities
using octave.

There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.

If you know anything about this information let me know.

Larry Blodgett
***@mac.com



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[Bill Denney]

I use it at the University of Pennsylvania for some of my research. I
think that once Octave Workshop stabilizes, I'll be recommending it to a
professor here who teaches a numerical methods (he will need an easy to
install Windows GUI with graphics).

Bill

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, Larry Blodgett wrote:

> Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version). I
> mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source. He
> asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would check
> with the list.
>
> I was under the impression that there were numerous universities using
> octave.
>
> There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.
>
> If you know anything about this information let me know.
>
> Larry Blodgett ***@mac.com

--
"Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is
happiness."
-- George Orwell



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[Gianvito Quarta]

I use Octave (together with MPITB
[http://atc.ugr.es/javier-bin/mpitb] on a 128 Intel Itanium II nodes
cluster) at the Centre for Advanced Computational Technologies/ISUFI
of University of Lecce (Italy) for my researches.
I usefully use Octave on the above mentioned cluster (for parallel
data processing) where Matlab does not work because it's not
officially supported on IA64 platforms.

G. Quarta

At 15.58 10/03/2006, Bill Denney wrote:
>I use it at the University of Pennsylvania for some of my
>research. I think that once Octave Workshop stabilizes, I'll be
>recommending it to a professor here who teaches a numerical methods
>(he will need an easy to install Windows GUI with graphics).
>
>Bill
>
>On Fri, 10 Mar 2006, Larry Blodgett wrote:
>
>>Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu
>>version). I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was
>>open source. He asked if there are many universities using octave.
>>I said I would check with the list.
>>
>>I was under the impression that there were numerous universities
>>using octave.
>>
>>There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.
>>
>>If you know anything about this information let me know.
>>
>>Larry Blodgett ***@mac.com
>
>--
>"Men can only be happy when they do not assume that the object of life is
>happiness."
> -- George Orwell
>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
>
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>Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
>-------------------------------------------------------------

===========================================
Gianvito Quarta, Ph.D.
CACT/ISUFI - University of Lecce
Distretto Tecnologico, palazzina A
via per Arnesano, 73100 Lecce - Italy
Voice [phone]
Fax [phone]
e-mail ***@unile.it
web http://www.cact.unile.it/staff/quarta/
===========================================



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[Victor Munoz]

On Fri, Mar 10, 2006 at 08:02:27AM -0600, Larry Blodgett wrote:
> Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version).
> I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source.
> He asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would
> check with the list.
> I was under the impression that there were numerous universities
> using octave.
>

We use it here in Chile, at the Faculty of Sciences, University of Chile,
for research (myself) and we also teach numerical methods using Octave and
C++ to our Physics students.

Victor



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[Steve C. Thompson]

On 10 Mar 06 08:02AM, Larry Blodgett wrote:
> I was under the impression that there were numerous
> universities using octave.

I use GNU Octave here at the University of California,
San Diego!

[Quentin Spencer]

Steve C. Thompson wrote:

>On 10 Mar 06 08:02AM, Larry Blodgett wrote:
>
>
>>I was under the impression that there were numerous
>>universities using octave.
>>
>>
>
>I use GNU Octave here at the University of California,
>San Diego!

[Ronald Crummett]

I feel like I am living proof of what Quentin has said. I am working
on my MSEE right now and was introduced to Matlab in a third-year
signal processing course. I thought it would be nice to work on my
home computer if possible and ended up buying the student version
later, only to find that features such as the Signal Processing
Toolbox were available at additional cost. I discovered Octave on my
own when I started using Linux and with some struggles (I liked to
print plots by clicking on the printer button in Matlab) feel just as
comfortable with it as I do Matlab. But never have I heard any of my
professors mention Octave as a viable alternative to Matlab. I don't
think a lot of them know it is out there.

-Ron


----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Spencer <***@ieee.org>
Date: Friday, March 10, 2006 8:45 am
Subject: Re: Octave in Universities
To: ***@ucsd.edu
Cc: Larry Blodgett <***@mac.com>, list octave <***@octave.org>

> Steve C. Thompson wrote:
>
> >On 10 Mar 06 08:02AM, Larry Blodgett wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I was under the impression that there were numerous
> >>universities using octave.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I use GNU Octave here at the University of California,
> >San Diego!

[Diego Ruiz]

Octave is installed in the server "pandora" at Universitat Pompeu
Fabra in Barcelona, Spain.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure if some else apart of me is aware of
this. Sad thou.

Bests,
Diego Ruiz

******************************************************
Diego Ruiz Hernández
www.econ.upf.es/~diruiz

Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Dept. d'Economia i Empresa
c/ Ramon Trias Fargas 25-27, 08025,
Barcelona, ESPAÑA

Fall Term:
Edinburgh University, School Of Management
William Robertson Building, 50 George Square
Edinburgh EH8 9JY, UK
******************************************************

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Steve C. Thompson" <***@ucsd.edu>
To: Larry Blodgett <***@mac.com>
Sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:31:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Octave in Universities

> On 10 Mar 06 08:02AM, Larry Blodgett wrote:
> > I was under the impression that there were numerous
> > universities using octave.
>
> I use GNU Octave here at the University of California,
> San Diego!

[Radu Prekup]

At Tallinn University of Technology, Tallinn, Estonia, Octave is a
integrated part of a civil engineering mechanics course by Dr. Andres Lahe
(see http://staff.ttu.ee/~alahe/ <http://staff.ttu.ee/%7Ealahe/>,
http://staff.ttu.ee/~alahe/konspekt/myCD/sisukord.html<http://staff.ttu.ee/%7Ealahe/konspekt/myCD/sisukord.html>,
it's written in Estonian, but the code isn't). He uses Octave for solid
mechanics calculations, introduction to the finite element method and such.
I personally and professionally have used Octave for the last 3 years.

On 3/14/06, Diego Ruiz <***@ietcat.org> wrote:
>
> Octave is installed in the server "pandora" at Universitat Pompeu
> Fabra in Barcelona, Spain.
> Unfortunately, I'm not sure if some else apart of me is aware of
> this. Sad thou.
>
> Bests,
> Diego Ruiz
>
> ******************************************************
> Diego Ruiz Hernández
> www.econ.upf.es/~diruiz <http://www.econ.upf.es/%7Ediruiz>
>
> Universitat Pompeu Fabra, Dept. d'Economia i Empresa
> c/ Ramon Trias Fargas 25-27, 08025,
> Barcelona, ESPAÑA
>
> Fall Term:
> Edinburgh University, School Of Management
> William Robertson Building, 50 George Square
> Edinburgh EH8 9JY, UK
> ******************************************************
>
> ---------- Original Message -----------
> From: "Steve C. Thompson" <***@ucsd.edu >
> To: Larry Blodgett <***@mac.com>
> Sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 08:31:05 -0800
> Subject: Re: Octave in Universities
>
> > On 10 Mar 06 08:02AM, Larry Blodgett wrote:
> > > I was under the impression that there were numerous
> > > universities using octave.
> >
> > I use GNU Octave here at the University of California,
> > San Diego! From my thesis, page 211:
> >
> > ``All numerical work, including the computer
> > simulations, was done with GNU Octave.''
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
> >
> > Octave's home on the web: http://www.octave.org
> > How to fund new projects: http://www.octave.org/funding.html
> > Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> ------- End of Original Message -------
>
>
>
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>
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>
>


--
Radu Prekup, B.Sc.
Research Technician
National Institute of Chemical Physics and Biophysics (NICPB)
Akadeemia tee 23, 12618 Tallinn, Estonia,
Phone [phone], Fax [phone]

[Guillem Borrell Nogueras]

I teach Matlab in the School of Aeronautics in the Universidad Politecnica de
Madrid in Spain. All the examples designed to be identical in both languages
and to run identically in both interpreters. I encourage everyone to use
Octave instead of Matlab in small scripts when no exotic toolbox is needed.
The mean programming knowledge in the school is near to zero, this means that
my course is more an introduction to scientific programming than an
introduction to Matlab and Octave.

I also wrote some extensive lecture notes about Matlab and Octave in spanish
to promote the use of Octave. I talked about them about one month ago in
this list. The conclusion of the notes is: Matlab has more functions but
Octave is a more interesting, enjoyable and powerful tool.

When I ask some feedback about Octave the complaints are always the same (the
well known weaknesses of Octave)
- No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to avoid it as
much as possible)
- Saving plots is difficult (idem)
- Only a few use linux and Octave lacks some more system integration with
Windows
- etc...

I tried to distribute some live-cds with octave among the course attendants
(quantian) but the effort was unsuccessful. Well, it's linux...

In the CFD lab. in the same university we use Matlab on Linux for data
analysis (large turbulent channels), no VTK, no OpenDX; just Matlab. The
general thought is that Matlab is a better tool than Octave, we can use
Matlab... Why should we use Octave? And of course, Matlab draws the 3D
isosurfaces easily...


--

Guillem Borrell Nogueras
WEBSITE
http://torroja.dmt.upm.es:9673/Guillem_Site/
BLOG
http://torroja.dmt.upm.es:9673/Guillem_Borrell/
EMAIL
guillemborrell_at_gmail.com (personal)
guillem_at_torroja.dmt.upm.es (CFD Lab. ETSIA)



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[kamaraju kusumanchi]

Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:

>When I ask some feedback about Octave the complaints are always the same (the
>well known weaknesses of Octave)
>- No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to avoid it as
>much as possible)
>
>
Have you tried octave with texmacs? texmacs provides a reasonable GUI
for many that lack it (maxima, gnuplot, octave to name a few)!

I personally use matlab because of compatibility issues. Code developed
under octave is not completely compatible with matlab. Matlab
compatibility is important as other people on the project are not
comfortable with octave or linux etc., So to make the collaboration as
easy as easy as possible, I settled on using matlab.

But for personal purposes, I use octave.

I would like to see a -matlab-compatible flag in octave. So that octave
behaves exactly like matlab when this flag is used.

regards
raju

--
http://kamaraju.googlepages.com/cornell-bazaar
http://groups.google.com/group/cornell-bazaar/about



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[John W. Eaton]

On 14-Mar-2006, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:

| I personally use matlab because of compatibility issues. Code developed
| under octave is not completely compatible with matlab.

In what ways? I think if you are careful (and it doesn't really
require that much work) you can write code for Octave that also works
without any changes in Matlab. Yes, you are restricted to a subset of
the language, but I think it is still a useful subset.

| I would like to see a -matlab-compatible flag in octave. So that octave
| behaves exactly like matlab when this flag is used.

So it would not allow double-quoted strings, # for comments, etc?
Even in .m files that are distributed with Octave? Is that really
what you want? And please don't even think about asking that the flag
only apply to user code -- what would that be, and how would you decide
what counts as user code? More likely, Octave will continue to aim
for compatibility plus some extensions (but as I've explained many
times now, we have to be careful when designing extensions).

jwe



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[kamaraju kusumanchi]

John W. Eaton wrote:

>On 14-Mar-2006, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
>
>| I personally use matlab because of compatibility issues. Code developed
>| under octave is not completely compatible with matlab.
>
>In what ways? I think if you are careful (and it doesn't really
>require that much work) you can write code for Octave that also works
>without any changes in Matlab. Yes, you are restricted to a subset of
>the language, but I think it is still a useful subset.
>
>
Let me explain my situation. I have access to octave and do not have
access to matlab. My collaborators have access to matlab with all the
toolboxes loaded etc., They insist on working in matlab and do not even
bother to try octave. It is not always that you can change mindsets of
people with predetermined opinions.

Sometime back, I developed a script of the following structure in octave.

some commands
definition of function1
definition of function2
use function1 here
use function2 here

(The above is just an example. Please dont take it literally.)

I spent some time on this code and when I sent it to my collaborators, I
got a message saying that it does not run in matlab. That is because,
matlab does not allow definition of functions inside a script. But
octave allows it.

I agree that octave does it right (in the sense that it allows functions
to be defined inside a script) than matlab. But I would have benefited a
lot if there a -matlab-compatible flag. Then before sending it to other
people, I for sure will know whether the code will work on matlab or not.

When this happened a lot of times, I felt embarrassed. It sends wrong
messages to your collaborators. It is not like I do not know programming
or anything like that, it is just that different people were using
different softwares which are not 100% compatible.



>| I would like to see a -matlab-compatible flag in octave. So that octave
>| behaves exactly like matlab when this flag is used.
>
>So it would not allow double-quoted strings, # for comments, etc?
>Even in .m files that are distributed with Octave? Is that really
>what you want?
>
I am talking from a user perspective. I think you are talking from a
developer's perspective. All I wanted is a way, which tells me whether a
given .m file will run without any problems on matlab or will it give
errors. I want to do this from octave without using matlab.

I dont think I am asking for a simple thing. I am saying it would be
good thing if octave has it.

raju

--
http://kamaraju.googlepages.com/cornell-bazaar
http://groups.google.com/group/cornell-bazaar/about



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[Paul Kienzle]

On Mar 14, 2006, at 10:14 AM, John W. Eaton wrote:

> On 14-Mar-2006, kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:
>
> | I personally use matlab because of compatibility issues. Code
> developed
> | under octave is not completely compatible with matlab.
>
> In what ways? I think if you are careful (and it doesn't really
> require that much work) you can write code for Octave that also works
> without any changes in Matlab. Yes, you are restricted to a subset of
> the language, but I think it is still a useful subset.
>
> | I would like to see a -matlab-compatible flag in octave. So that
> octave
> | behaves exactly like matlab when this flag is used.
>
> So it would not allow double-quoted strings, # for comments, etc?
> Even in .m files that are distributed with Octave? Is that really
> what you want? And please don't even think about asking that the flag
> only apply to user code -- what would that be, and how would you decide
> what counts as user code? More likely, Octave will continue to aim
> for compatibility plus some extensions (but as I've explained many
> times now, we have to be careful when designing extensions).

The argument for supporting this can be made for a number
of people. E.g., students working on their own version at home
of the problem who have to hand it in to the professor who will
test it on matlab. People collaborating with matlab users on a
project. Toolbox writers who want to have their code run on Matlab.

Most of the work can be done by tweaking the lexer so it doesn't
handle quite so many keywords. It would be easy enough to trigger
from a file starting with % for example. The biggest difficulty
would be restricting the the available functions to those that are
compatible. The other difficulty is to find someone to to do the
necessary work without making the interpreter harder to maintain.

- Paul



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[Quentin Spencer]

kamaraju kusumanchi wrote:

> Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:
>
>> When I ask some feedback about Octave the complaints are always the
>> same (the well known weaknesses of Octave)
>> - No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to
>> avoid it as much as possible)
>>
>>
> Have you tried octave with texmacs? texmacs provides a reasonable GUI
> for many that lack it (maxima, gnuplot, octave to name a few)!
>
> I personally use matlab because of compatibility issues. Code
> developed under octave is not completely compatible with matlab.
> Matlab compatibility is important as other people on the project are
> not comfortable with octave or linux etc., So to make the
> collaboration as easy as easy as possible, I settled on using matlab.
>
> But for personal purposes, I use octave.
>
> I would like to see a -matlab-compatible flag in octave. So that
> octave behaves exactly like matlab when this flag is used.


I'm curious what compatibility issues you are talking about? There may
be a few missing features or functions (like handle graphics), but as
far as basic syntax, I don't think there are any incompatibilities. I
have a pretty large code base of m-files that I use in my work that run
in both environments. There are some things unique to Octave (like #
comments, and operators like ++, +=, etc.) but if you avoid those,
everything should work in Matlab.

-Quentin



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[John W. Eaton]

On 14-Mar-2006, Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:

| - No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to avoid it as
| much as possible)

In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.

jwe



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[Guillem Borrell Nogueras]

On Tuesday 14 March 2006 16:22, John W. Eaton wrote:

> In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
> even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
> anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
> least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
> the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
> without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
> few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
> familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.

And it amuses me too! But the average windows user, even engineers, will
*always* use that "print" button in the plot window. I am not saying that
Octave must change to fill their (sometimes stupid) needs.

I'ts the infamous "don't think, just click" plague. I felt it for the first
time when I explained the "axis" command and one attendant suggested me that
the optimal chioice was to use the matlab's zoom tool. Example: how many
Windows users use the desktop calculator with the mouse instead of using the
numeric keyboard?

guillem
--

Guillem Borrell Nogueras
WEBSITE
http://torroja.dmt.upm.es:9673/Guillem_Site/
BLOG
http://torroja.dmt.upm.es:9673/Guillem_Borrell/
EMAIL
guillemborrell_at_gmail.com (personal)
guillem_at_torroja.dmt.upm.es (CFD Lab. ETSIA)



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[Matt Taylor]

>
> On 14-Mar-2006, Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:
>
> | - No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to avoid it as
> | much as possible)
>
> In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
> even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
> anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
> least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
> the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
> without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
> few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
> familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.
>
> jwe
>


I have been using Octave almost exclusively. But when I really get
stuck, trying to debug some complex code, I use Matlab's graphical
debugging mode to find my problem. It is very convenient to be able to
step through the code and evaluate individual expressions/check variable
values.

Matt




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[David Bateman]

Matt Taylor wrote:

>>
>> On 14-Mar-2006, Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:
>>
>> | - No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to
>> avoid it as | much as possible)
>>
>> In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
>> even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
>> anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
>> least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
>> the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
>> without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
>> few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
>> familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.
>>
>> jwe
>>
>
>
>
> I have been using Octave almost exclusively. But when I really get
> stuck, trying to debug some complex code, I use Matlab's graphical
> debugging mode to find my problem. It is very convenient to be able
> to step through the code and evaluate individual expressions/check
> variable values.
>
> Matt
>
Octave has an inbuilt debugger. Check the keyboard command and the
debug_on_error variable.

D.


--
David Bateman ***@motorola.com
Motorola Labs - Paris [phone] (Ph)
Parc Les Algorithmes, Commune de St Aubin [phone] (Mob)
91193 Gif-Sur-Yvette FRANCE [phone] (Fax)

The information contained in this communication has been classified as:

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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Gorazd Brumen]

Hi,

Can anyone tell me if there is any good documentation on octave
debugger? In John's book only commands are described. Where are
next and step commands (functionality as in gdb)?.




Btw, I also think that graphical debugging is way easier than
command-line one. And the gui issue pops up again.


Regards,
Gorazd

David Bateman wrote:
> Matt Taylor wrote:
>
>
>>>On 14-Mar-2006, Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:
>>>
>>>| - No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to
>>>avoid it as | much as possible)
>>>
>>>In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
>>>even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
>>>anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
>>>least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
>>>the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
>>>without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
>>>few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
>>>familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.
>>>
>>>jwe
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I have been using Octave almost exclusively. But when I really get
>>stuck, trying to debug some complex code, I use Matlab's graphical
>>debugging mode to find my problem. It is very convenient to be able
>>to step through the code and evaluate individual expressions/check
>>variable values.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>
> Octave has an inbuilt debugger. Check the keyboard command and the
> debug_on_error variable.
>
> D.
>
>

--
Gorazd Brumen
Mail: ***@isb.unizh.ch
WWW: http://valjhun.fmf.uni-lj.si/~brumen
PGP: Key at http://pgp.mit.edu, ID BCC93240



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Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

[John W. Eaton]

On 14-Mar-2006, Matt Taylor wrote:

| I have been using Octave almost exclusively. But when I really get
| stuck, trying to debug some complex code, I use Matlab's graphical
| debugging mode to find my problem. It is very convenient to be able to
| step through the code and evaluate individual expressions/check variable
| values.

Yes, debugging tools can be quite useful, but you can also have an
interactive debugger without a GUI or point and click anything.

jwe



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Bill Denney]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, John W. Eaton wrote:

> In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
> even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
> anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
> least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
> the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
> without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
> few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
> familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.

Unfortunately, I think that this is a big problem for a lot of people, and
it will turn people off from octave. The problem isn't that there isn't a
GUI, the problem to them is that it looks different.

When I show someone how I work in octave using emacs as my editor, they
just want the matlab interface and won't take a second look (this has
happened in my lab). If I were to show them Octave Workshop as it is now
(I've not yet done this, but this is how I predict it would happen), they
will ask why the command window pops up and I'll have to tell them "Ignore
that window and just look at the gui". Once Octave Workshop reaches
version 1.0 (yes, it will probably have to be called 1.0 because of other
prejudices), people that I know may start really looking at Octave as an
alternative to matlab.

The GUI doesn't matter except for the "warm fuzzy feelings" that people
get from the famililarity of a gui and of matlab, but those feelings can
and do turn people off from octave. If I can get a second look, then I
can start to convince them that octave is useful to them and can be used
as a matlab replacement. It is harder to get that second look without a
gui.

Bill

--
A professor is one who talks in someone else's sleep. -- unknown



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Keith Goodman]

On 3/14/06, John W. Eaton <***@bevo.che.wisc.edu> wrote:
> On 14-Mar-2006, Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:
>
> | - No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to avoid it as
> | much as possible)
>
> In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
> even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
> anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
> least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
> the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
> without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
> few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
> familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.

It is encouraging to hear that so many people from so many disciplines
from so many countries use Octave. I had no idea.

This thread is the closest I've seen to a user survey. I don't think
this thread is the right place to tell the survey respondents that
they do not want a GUI.

But after hearing the lead developer of Octave suggest that an Octave
GUI is not needed, I think we should start a new thread on the GUI/CLI
religious debate.



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Steve C. Thompson]

On 14 Mar 06 10:22AM, John W. Eaton wrote:
> On 14-Mar-2006, Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:
>> No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so
>> they try to avoid it as much as possible
>
> So, when people are saying that they can't live
> without a GUI, they are really asking for a command
> line window with a few decorations...

[soap box on]

At one time, I used Matlab's GUI; and, yeah, it had
some features that were useful. I now use X windows
with multiple virtual desktops, Vim, terminal emulators
(Konsole), and so forth. In my view, the features
gained with this later approach largely outweigh the
features lost by ditching Matlab's GUI. So my message
to anyone who is hung up on Matlab's GUI is that there
is a much bigger world of great tools available. With
a little work, the return on investment is significant.

Step 1: learn how to use *vi* or Emacs
Step 2: learn how to use X windows, virtual desktops
Step 3: use GNU Octave

Of course, these steps are done in parallel and the
enjoyable process is continuous, never ending!

[soap box off]

Steve



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Michael Creel]

Steve C. Thompson wrote:

>
> [soap box on]
>
> At one time, I used Matlab's GUI; and, yeah, it had
> some features that were useful. I now use X windows
> with multiple virtual desktops, Vim, terminal emulators
> (Konsole), and so forth. In my view, the features
> gained with this later approach largely outweigh the
> features lost by ditching Matlab's GUI. So my message
> to anyone who is hung up on Matlab's GUI is that there
> is a much bigger world of great tools available. With
> a little work, the return on investment is significant.
>
> Step 1: learn how to use *vi* or Emacs
> Step 2: learn how to use X windows, virtual desktops
> Step 3: use GNU Octave
>
> Of course, these steps are done in parallel and the
> enjoyable process is continuous, never ending!
>
> [soap box off]
>

Looking at it from a newbie's point of view, you're asking them to do
the most painful, steepest learning curve, less obviously productive
stuff first, and the intrinsically interesting not-too difficult stuff
last. Also, at a university, the potential users are mostly undergrad
students who were born after the DOS prompt was starting to fade into
the past. Making Octave work with a GUI, and making it really easy to
plot and print graphs will help a lot in getting used. I hate to say it,
but making it work with windows will have a bigger effect that any other
factor. I'm constantly amazed with the trouble windows users will put up
with, rather than invest in a day learning how to use KDE.
M.





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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Francesco Potorti`]

>Making Octave work with a GUI, and making it really easy to plot and
>print graphs will help a lot in getting used. I hate to say it, but
>making it work with windows will have a bigger effect that any other
>factor.

I completely agree.

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore) Voice: [phone] (op.2111)
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR Fax: [phone]
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa Email: ***@isti.cnr.it
Web: http://fly.isti.cnr.it/ Key: fly.isti.cnr.it/public.key



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Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

[Michael Grossbach]

Hi list,
I am currently transitioning from another product to Octave. Location:
vet school Hannover, Germany

Michael



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Peter Gustafson]

I used octave and maxima for my numerical and symbolic work at the
University of Michigan Aerospace Engineering Dept. I advertise via word
of mouth to my fellow graduate students and to any Professor who will
listen, however I receive a lot of resistance.

Pete Gustafson



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Steve C. Thompson]

On 12 Mar 06 14:13PM, Peter Gustafson wrote:
> ... however I receive a lot of resistance.

I hear that!

Persistence is key. Keep at it.

Steve



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Francesco Potorti`]

I have used Octave since I discovered it, many years ago, after having
appreciated the clean Matlab language. I have some of my students and
colleagues use it. This is not a university, rather a research
institute.

--
Francesco Potortì (ricercatore) Voice: [phone] (op.2111)
ISTI - Area della ricerca CNR Fax: [phone]
via G. Moruzzi 1, I-56124 Pisa Email: ***@isti.cnr.it
Web: http://fly.isti.cnr.it/ Key: fly.isti.cnr.it/public.key



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Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

[Doug Stewart]

I teach at Fanshawe College London Ontario.
We have about 30 students a year who use Octave. Mainly filter design,
PID, Laplace and z space.
Doug Stewart



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Agustin Barto]

Larry Blodgett wrote:
> Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version).
> I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source.
> He asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would
> check with the list.
> I was under the impression that there were numerous universities using
> octave.
>
> There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.
Octave (w/ octave-forge) is used in an introductory course on
programming, and in a couple of numerical analysis courses in the School
of Engineering of Universidad Nacional de Córdoba, Argentina
(http://www.efn.uncor.edu).

Agustin



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Joshua Rigler]

Aside from using Octave for 90%+ of my own thesis work at the University
of Colorado in Boulder, I have contributed to a project called CISM-DX.
This is a collection of analysis and visualization tools based heavily
on Octave and OpenDX that is being developed as part of the NSF-funded
Center for Integraged Space-weather Modeling (CISM). I don't think it
(CISM-DX) has been used extensively in a traditional class setting, but
it has been used in CISM's annual "summer school", a crash course intro
to applied space physics held each year at Boston University. I
wouldn't be surprised if others more familiar with CISM-DX are lurking
about this list that could tell you more if they just spoke up.

-EJR


Larry Blodgett wrote:
> Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version).
> I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source.
> He asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would
> check with the list.
> I was under the impression that there were numerous universities using
> octave.
>
> There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.
>
> If you know anything about this information let me know.
>
> Larry Blodgett
> ***@mac.com
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
>
> Octave's home on the web: http://www.octave.org
> How to fund new projects: http://www.octave.org/funding.html
> Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>



-------------------------------------------------------------
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Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

[P.J.G. Long]

We have just swapped our main Undergraduate teaching from
Matlab to Octave with little problem. We also distribute a Live
CD with Octave on, + an embryonic web based calculation package
using Octave as the backend processor, See
www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk, for further details and a slightly buggy
on-line version.

Regards

Peter Long

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Peter Long Tel: [phone]
Senior Design Engineer
Cambridge University Engineering Department Fax: [phone]
Trumpington Street
Cambridge CB2 1PZ e-mail: ***@eng.cam.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Open Source Software/Hardware/Resources for Engineers www-mdp.eng.cam.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



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Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

[Theresa Bullard]

I'm at the University of Washington in Seattle and am just learning
about Octave. I hope to use it for some of my thesis work. I know that
the physics department here uses Mathematica and Matlab and C++ for
their numerical methods classes, but they might be open to Octave. At
this point though they are not too familiar with it. I don't know if
any of the other departments at this school use it.

Theresa


On Mar 10, 2006, at 6:02 AM, Larry Blodgett wrote:

> Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version).
> I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source.
> He asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would
> check with the list.
> I was under the impression that there were numerous universities using
> octave.
>
> There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.
>
> If you know anything about this information let me know.
>
> Larry Blodgett
> ***@mac.com
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
>
> Octave's home on the web: http://www.octave.org
> How to fund new projects: http://www.octave.org/funding.html
> Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>



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Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
-------------------------------------------------------------

[Etienne Grossmann]

Hi,

I adopted Matlab in 96, coming from C/C++ and Splus. In 97, I briefly
tested Octave, on my Debian laptop, but kept using Matlab at work. In
98, during my PhD, our Matlab license expired and the person
maintaining it was unjoinable on long vacations. In order to keep
working and to be sure this inconvenience wouldn't repeat itself, I
decided to port all my work to a freely available language.

My choice boiled down to Octave and Scilab. A few language
advantages (iirc, the 'keyboard' function, variable length arg and
return lists), the GPL, and the feeling that Octave development was
more active and would better stand the test of time made me choose
Octave. I have used it for most of my work since then.

Afaik, few of my present or past colleagues use Octave - except
perhaps Mai Zhou [1] at the math dept. of the U. of Kentucky, who
maintains a web interface [2]. I will ask for his comments.

Hth,

Etienne

[1] http://www.ms.uky.edu/~mai
[2] http://www.ms.uky.edu/~statweb/

On Fri, Mar 10, 2006 at 08:02:27AM -0600, Larry Blodgett wrote:
# Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version).
# I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source.
# He asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would
# check with the list.
# I was under the impression that there were numerous universities
# using octave.
#
# There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.
#
# If you know anything about this information let me know.
#
# Larry Blodgett
# ***@mac.com
#
#
#
# -------------------------------------------------------------
# Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
#
# Octave's home on the web: http://www.octave.org
# How to fund new projects: http://www.octave.org/funding.html
# Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
# -------------------------------------------------------------

--
Etienne Grossmann ------ http://www.cs.uky.edu/~etienne



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Paul Kienzle]

On Mar 11, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Etienne Grossmann wrote:

> Afaik, few of my present or past colleagues use Octave - except
> perhaps Mai Zhou [1] at the math dept. of the U. of Kentucky, who
> maintains a web interface [2]. I will ask for his comments.

Thinking about web interfaces to octave, I got concerned about
the security implications. For example, the system call gives
full access to the local shell, and there are commands like
fopen which can also be dangerous in the right hands.

I wrote a quick little function clear_builtin which removes
a function symbol from the current context, from the prompt
and from the builtin function list. That means you don't have
to hack your version of octave to remove system().

A complete solution would clear a number of builtin functions
and provide oct-file replacements for alternatives which do
complete argument checking (e.g., fopen which strips all directory
information before opening).

Anyone want to put something together and add it to octave-forge?

- Paul

-- clear_builtin.cc --
#include <octave/oct.h>
#include <octave/symtab.h>

DEFUN_DLD(clear_builtin,args,nargout,"clear a builtin function")
{
octave_value_list retval;
if (args.length() != 1) {
print_usage("clearfn");
} else {
std::string nm(args(0).string_value());
if (!error_state) {
fbi_sym_tab->clear(nm);
curr_sym_tab->clear(nm);
top_level_sym_tab->clear(nm);
}
}
return retval;
}



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Robert S. Weigel]

I have been working on web interfaces lately. I am in the process of
integrating the UKY code with something to interactively view space plasma
time series. Here is an excellent interactive SVG plotter that I am
modifying to receive the plot commands:
http://www.codedread.com/displayWebStats.php.

I don't have anything general or ready for demo right now, but I just wanted
to let you know of someone who is interested in web interfaces.

Bob


> > Afaik, few of my present or past colleagues use Octave - except
> > perhaps Mai Zhou [1] at the math dept. of the U. of Kentucky, who
> > maintains a web interface [2]. I will ask for his comments.
>
> Thinking about web interfaces to octave, I got concerned about
> the security implications. For example, the system call gives
> full access to the local shell, and there are commands like
> fopen which can also be dangerous in the right hands.
>
> I wrote a quick little function clear_builtin which removes
> a function symbol from the current context, from the prompt
> and from the builtin function list. That means you don't have
> to hack your version of octave to remove system().
>
> A complete solution would clear a number of builtin functions
> and provide oct-file replacements for alternatives which do
> complete argument checking (e.g., fopen which strips all directory
> information before opening).
>
> Anyone want to put something together and add it to octave-forge?
>
> - Paul
>
> -- clear_builtin.cc --
> #include <octave/oct.h>
> #include <octave/symtab.h>
>
> DEFUN_DLD(clear_builtin,args,nargout,"clear a builtin function")
> {
> octave_value_list retval;
> if (args.length() != 1) {
> print_usage("clearfn");
> } else {
> std::string nm(args(0).string_value());
> if (!error_state) {
> fbi_sym_tab->clear(nm);
> curr_sym_tab->clear(nm);
> top_level_sym_tab->clear(nm);
> }
> }
> return retval;
> }
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
>
> Octave's home on the web: http://www.octave.org
> How to fund new projects: http://www.octave.org/funding.html
> Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
> -------------------------------------------------------------

--
Bob Weigel
Assistant Professor
School of Computational Sciences and
Department of Physics
George Mason University
4400 University Drive, MS 5C3
Fairfax, VA 22030-4444
Office: Science & Tech I, Room 111
Phone: [phone] (office)
Phone: [phone] (cell)
Fax: [phone]
Email: ***@gmu.edu
Web: http://www.scs.gmu.edu/~rweigel



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Marek Szczypinski]

Hello,
I am using octave at Nicolaus Copernicus University, Torun, Poland
I am writing software for my B.A. in astronomy, using octave/C++/Fortran.
There is another person, using octave for Celestial Mechanics.
Greetings,
Marek

Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Henry F. Mollet]

I tried MATLAB at the same time I've started using OCTAVE and noticed that
there was no GUI to speak of and continued using OCTAVE. Why is it so
difficult to provide a proper GUI or a combination of GUI and command line
interface (CLI). The people with good memory can use the much faster CLI,
others can use the GUI which will also write the commands to the CLI window
and now they can be used there and modified if necessary if one does not
want to go back to the GUI. I need a little help to get started with the CLI
each time. In particular, if my uses are weeks or months apart.

At one time we only had CLI, then came the Mac with a user-friedly GUI, then
came Windows copying the Mac GUI. Now OS X is Unix-based, a Terminal window
is available for most efficient use, and unfortunately I rarely remember the
commands. Octave is similar, I cannot remember the commands from one day to
the next, and have to look them up in the manual or using help each time.
Henry


on 3/14/06 7:22 AM, John W. Eaton at ***@bevo.che.wisc.edu wrote:

> On 14-Mar-2006, Guillem Borrell Nogueras wrote:
>
> | - No GUI (They are *not* used to the command line so they try to avoid it
> as
> | much as possible)
>
> In connection with Octave/Matlab, this issue always amuses me because
> even with the Matlab GUI, I don't think you can really do much of
> anything without typing a command at the command line prompt that (at
> least by default) is in a frame that occupies the greatest portion of
> the GUI window. So, when people are saying that they can't live
> without a GUI, they are really asking for a command line window with a
> few decorations to give them a warm and fuzzy feeling (ah, the
> familiar "Edit" button). Oh, and a "print" button on the plot window.
>
> jwe
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
>
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> Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>




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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Quentin Spencer]

Henry F. Mollet wrote:

>I tried MATLAB at the same time I've started using OCTAVE and noticed that
>there was no GUI to speak of and continued using OCTAVE. Why is it so
>difficult to provide a proper GUI or a combination of GUI and command line
>interface (CLI). The people with good memory can use the much faster CLI,
>others can use the GUI which will also write the commands to the CLI window
>and now they can be used there and modified if necessary if one does not
>want to go back to the GUI. I need a little help to get started with the CLI
>each time. In particular, if my uses are weeks or months apart.
>
>At one time we only had CLI, then came the Mac with a user-friedly GUI, then
>came Windows copying the Mac GUI. Now OS X is Unix-based, a Terminal window
>is available for most efficient use, and unfortunately I rarely remember the
>commands. Octave is similar, I cannot remember the commands from one day to
>the next, and have to look them up in the manual or using help each time.
>
>

Yes, but don't you have to do the same thing in the Matlab GUI when you
forget the commands? I guess I agree with John on this--the GUI offers
some nice features, and for many applications it helps quite a bit for
beginners, but for Matlab/Octave, I don't see what difference a GUI
makes for learning the language. If I recall correctly, Matlab didn't
have a GUI until version 6 or so--maybe it's not an issue for me because
I started using Octave before the Matlab GUI existed (and even then I
found the early versions unstable, slow, and buggy on Windows, and ugly
on Linux).

-Quentin



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[Javier Arantegui]

Hello,

El Martes, 14 de Marzo de 2006 18:20, Quentin Spencer escribió:
> Yes, but don't you have to do the same thing in the Matlab GUI when you
> forget the commands? I guess I agree with John on this--the GUI offers
> some nice features, and for many applications it helps quite a bit for
> beginners, but for Matlab/Octave, I don't see what difference a GUI
> makes for learning the language.

When I read the messages about the Matlab GUI, I thought you were talking
about Simulink:
http://www.mathworks.com/products/simulink/?BB=1

I haven't used it, but it looks like a killer application. It makes using
Matlab a complete different experience. There is no Free Software like
Simulink :-( Well, I tested Scicos a long time ago, but I found it quite
unusable.

Javier

--
Javier Arántegui
Dept. Tecnologia de Alimentos / Dept. of Food Technology
Universitat de Lleida / University of Lleida (Spain)

Tel. [phone]
Fax [phone]
IM: Jabber - javier.arantegui (AT) jabberes.org
http://www.tecal.udl.es



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[Henry F. Mollet]

I was not clear. I meant that MATLAB has no GUI to speak of either. And
perhaps right or wrong, when I say GUI, I mean a menu driven program, which
help me to find what I need.
Henry


on 3/14/06 9:20 AM, Quentin Spencer at ***@ieee.org wrote:

> Henry F. Mollet wrote:
>
>> I tried MATLAB at the same time I've started using OCTAVE and noticed that
>> there was no GUI to speak of and continued using OCTAVE. Why is it so
>> difficult to provide a proper GUI or a combination of GUI and command line
>> interface (CLI). The people with good memory can use the much faster CLI,
>> others can use the GUI which will also write the commands to the CLI window
>> and now they can be used there and modified if necessary if one does not
>> want to go back to the GUI. I need a little help to get started with the CLI
>> each time. In particular, if my uses are weeks or months apart.
>>
>> At one time we only had CLI, then came the Mac with a user-friedly GUI, then
>> came Windows copying the Mac GUI. Now OS X is Unix-based, a Terminal window
>> is available for most efficient use, and unfortunately I rarely remember the
>> commands. Octave is similar, I cannot remember the commands from one day to
>> the next, and have to look them up in the manual or using help each time.
>>
>>
>
> Yes, but don't you have to do the same thing in the Matlab GUI when you
> forget the commands? I guess I agree with John on this--the GUI offers
> some nice features, and for many applications it helps quite a bit for
> beginners, but for Matlab/Octave, I don't see what difference a GUI
> makes for learning the language. If I recall correctly, Matlab didn't
> have a GUI until version 6 or so--maybe it's not an issue for me because
> I started using Octave before the Matlab GUI existed (and even then I
> found the early versions unstable, slow, and buggy on Windows, and ugly
> on Linux).
>
> -Quentin
>




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[Robert A. Macy]

move mouse, change hand to keyboard
type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
move mouse, change hand to keyboard
type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
move mouse, change hand to keyboard
type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
move mouse, change hand to keyboard
type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
move mouse, change hand to keyboard
type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
.
.
.
This is why I *HATE* guis, and love command line entry

- Robert -

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 09:47:23 -0800
"Keith Goodman" <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> But after hearing the lead developer of Octave suggest
> that an Octave
> GUI is not needed, I think we should start a new thread
> on the GUI/CLI
> religious debate.



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[Stefan de Konink]

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, Robert A. Macy wrote:

> move mouse, change hand to keyboard
> type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
> move mouse, change hand to keyboard
> type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
> move mouse, change hand to keyboard
> type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
> move mouse, change hand to keyboard
> type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
> move mouse, change hand to keyboard
> type on keyboard, change hand to mouse
> .
> .
> .
> This is why I *HATE* guis, and love command line entry

Moving my tabletpen, and rotates the output of a 3d plot. Now this is
nothing GUI fancy but still a thing I can't do in gnuplot.

So a few graphical things work faster, then again, something completely
different as Maxima/Octave integration is something I dream of :)



Stefan



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[John W. Eaton]

On 15-Mar-2006, Stefan de Konink wrote:

| Moving my tabletpen, and rotates the output of a 3d plot. Now this is
| nothing GUI fancy but still a thing I can't do in gnuplot.

I'm not sure what you mean by "tabletpen" but if it functions like a
mouse and you issue the command "set mouse" to gnuplot, then you
should be able to rotate and zoom plots if you are using X11 gnuplot
driver (assuming a sufficiently recent version of gnuplot). If you
mean that it doesn't work when you are plotting from Octave, then add

set mouse

to your ~/.gnuplot file and restart Octave.

jwe



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[Ron Crummett]

I'm sorry, I've been out of town for a couple of days and missed a lot
of the GUI vs. CLI discussion, so if I say anything irrelevant and old I
apologize.

My main question is what users mean when they say GUI? It seems to me
like most everything done in either Matlab or Octave is done by command
line. I like the window docking in Matlab - I like to set up Matlab so
that I have a panel featuring my command window, a panel with my editor,
and a panel for plots. That way I don't have to go searching around
looking for any plots after I run a function. But it's not too hard to
set up Octave so that the plot is in a small enough window that it
doesn't cover the command window, and my experience is that the command
window is inactive once you start editing a function (if I'm wrong on
this I'd love to know - when I type 'edit xxxx' then I can't do anything
in my command window until I close out of emacs).

This doesn't seem like a GUI to me, though. Do people just want a print
button on plots? Sure it would be nice but it's not too tough to use
the print command. If I can do it, anyone can. Anyway, my two cents...

-Ron Crummett



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[Keith Goodman]

On 3/15/06, Ron Crummett <***@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> I'm sorry, I've been out of town for a couple of days and missed a lot
> of the GUI vs. CLI discussion, so if I say anything irrelevant and old I
> apologize.
>
> My main question is what users mean when they say GUI? It seems to me
> like most everything done in either Matlab or Octave is done by command
> line. I like the window docking in Matlab - I like to set up Matlab so
> that I have a panel featuring my command window, a panel with my editor,
> and a panel for plots. That way I don't have to go searching around
> looking for any plots after I run a function. But it's not too hard to
> set up Octave so that the plot is in a small enough window that it
> doesn't cover the command window, and my experience is that the command
> window is inactive once you start editing a function (if I'm wrong on
> this I'd love to know - when I type 'edit xxxx' then I can't do anything
> in my command window until I close out of emacs).
>
> This doesn't seem like a GUI to me, though. Do people just want a print
> button on plots? Sure it would be nice but it's not too tough to use
> the print command. If I can do it, anyone can. Anyway, my two cents...

>

[Quentin Spencer]

Keith Goodman wrote:

>On 3/15/06, Ron Crummett <***@uidaho.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm sorry, I've been out of town for a couple of days and missed a lot
>>of the GUI vs. CLI discussion, so if I say anything irrelevant and old I
>>apologize.
>>
>>My main question is what users mean when they say GUI? It seems to me
>>like most everything done in either Matlab or Octave is done by command
>>line. I like the window docking in Matlab - I like to set up Matlab so
>>that I have a panel featuring my command window, a panel with my editor,
>>and a panel for plots. That way I don't have to go searching around
>>looking for any plots after I run a function. But it's not too hard to
>>set up Octave so that the plot is in a small enough window that it
>>doesn't cover the command window, and my experience is that the command
>>window is inactive once you start editing a function (if I'm wrong on
>>this I'd love to know - when I type 'edit xxxx' then I can't do anything
>>in my command window until I close out of emacs).
>>
>>This doesn't seem like a GUI to me, though. Do people just want a print
>>button on plots? Sure it would be nice but it's not too tough to use
>>the print command. If I can do it, anyone can. Anyway, my two cents...
>>
>>
>
>>

[John W. Eaton]

On 15-Mar-2006, Quentin Spencer wrote:

| I agree this would be useful. Aren't the general-purpose IDEs for Linux
| like KDevelop and Eclipse customizable so that you could make them do
| this for Octave? It seems like that would be the easiest path to a
| Matlab-like IDE--in fact I thought I remembered someone saying they were
| working on something like this for Eclipse a while back.

But it still all gets back to how does the IDE/GUI thing communicate
with Octave, doesn't it? I still think the most effective thing will
be if the IDE/GUI is integrated with Octave, so they are not both
trying to handle events independently, and so that the IDE/GUI does
not end up reimplementing things that already exist in Octave (the
command line editor, history, the diary, etc.).

Also, a couple of the things that were mentioned were editor tasks
(code indenting and region commenting). Does it really make sense for
Octave to have a separate lame editor that is just different enough
from every other lame embedded editor to be really annoying? I mean,
why does every application need its own editor?

jwe



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-------------------------------------------------------------

[John Swensen]

John W. Eaton wrote:
> On 15-Mar-2006, Quentin Spencer wrote:
>
> | I agree this would be useful. Aren't the general-purpose IDEs for Linux
> | like KDevelop and Eclipse customizable so that you could make them do
> | this for Octave? It seems like that would be the easiest path to a
> | Matlab-like IDE--in fact I thought I remembered someone saying they were
> | working on something like this for Eclipse a while back.
>
> But it still all gets back to how does the IDE/GUI thing communicate
> with Octave, doesn't it? I still think the most effective thing will
> be if the IDE/GUI is integrated with Octave, so they are not both
> trying to handle events independently, and so that the IDE/GUI does
> not end up reimplementing things that already exist in Octave (the
> command line editor, history, the diary, etc.).
>
> Also, a couple of the things that were mentioned were editor tasks
> (code indenting and region commenting). Does it really make sense for
> Octave to have a separate lame editor that is just different enough
> from every other lame embedded editor to be really annoying? I mean,
> why does every application need its own editor?
>
> jwe
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Octave is freely available under the terms of the GNU GPL.
>
> Octave's home on the web: http://www.octave.org
> How to fund new projects: http://www.octave.org/funding.html
> Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

I see the only reason as having its own lame embedded editor is for
breakpoints, hover-values when broken, dockable watch windows, call
stack, etc. In fact, I think this functionality is enough to move it
out of the lame category and into the "worth your while" category.

John


P.S. Since I am using the GtkSourceView widget for my editor, it is
essentially the same thing as gedit, with the extra windows I mentioned.



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[John W. Eaton]

On 15-Mar-2006, John Swensen wrote:

| I see the only reason as having its own lame embedded editor is for
| breakpoints, hover-values when broken, dockable watch windows, call
| stack, etc. In fact, I think this functionality is enough to move it
| out of the lame category and into the "worth your while" category.

I think I would still prefer to have the functionality available in
Emacs, and others would like to be able to use some vi varient, or
some other favorite editor.

In any case, I think some some improvements in the core of Octave will
be required to make any of these debugging features work.

jwe




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[Robert A. Macy]

True, using the mouse rotates my plots too.

- Robert -

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 02:39:49 +0100 (CET)
Stefan de Konink <***@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Moving my tabletpen, and rotates the output of a 3d plot.
> Now this is
> nothing GUI fancy but still a thing I can't do in
> gnuplot.
>
> So a few graphical things work faster, then again,
> something completely
> different as Maxima/Octave integration is something I
> dream of :)
>
>
>
> Stefan
>



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[Paul Koufalas]

Javier,

I found out about J-Sim (Simulink for Octave) some months ago but
haven't had a chance to evaluate it; check it out...

http://www.webeng.org/jsim.htmCheersPaul.

Javier Arantegui wrote:

>
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>El Martes, 14 de Marzo de 2006 18:20, Quentin Spencer escribió:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Yes, but don't you have to do the same thing in the Matlab GUI when you
>>>forget the commands? I guess I agree with John on this--the GUI offers
>>>some nice features, and for many applications it helps quite a bit for
>>>beginners, but for Matlab/Octave, I don't see what difference a GUI
>>>makes for learning the language.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>When I read the messages about the Matlab GUI, I thought you were talking
>>about Simulink:
>>http://www.mathworks.com/products/simulink/?BB=1
>>
>>I haven't used it, but it looks like a killer application. It makes using
>>Matlab a complete different experience. There is no Free Software like
>>Simulink :-( Well, I tested Scicos a long time ago, but I found it quite
>>unusable.
>>
>>Javier
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[Muthiah Annamalai]

I think FlowDesigner is a great tool,
http://freshmeat.net/projects/flowdesigner/

But extending it to use GNU Octave engine, and associated
functions is non-trivial, but nevertheless doable.

Ofcourse its free [as in freedom] and licensed as Octave itself.
So unlike the J-sim we dont need to ask anyof the folks for 'permission'.

Also Flow designer is pretty good, from the demos Ive seen,
http://robotflow.sourceforge.net/demo.html
and has some external toolkits like the Robotflow.

Cheers
Muthu


Paul Koufalas <***@senet.com.au> wrote: Javier,

I found out about J-Sim (Simulink for Octave) some months ago but
haven't had a chance to evaluate it; check it out...

http://www.webeng.org/jsim.htmCheersPaul.

Javier Arantegui wrote:

>
>
>>Hello,
>>
>>El Martes, 14 de Marzo de 2006 18:20, Quentin Spencer escribió:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Yes, but don't you have to do the same thing in the Matlab GUI when you
>>>forget the commands? I guess I agree with John on this--the GUI offers
>>>some nice features, and for many applications it helps quite a bit for
>>>beginners, but for Matlab/Octave, I don't see what difference a GUI
>>>makes for learning the language.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>When I read the messages about the Matlab GUI, I thought you were talking
>>about Simulink:
>>http://www.mathworks.com/products/simulink/?BB=1
>>
>>I haven't used it, but it looks like a killer application. It makes using
>>Matlab a complete different experience. There is no Free Software like
>>Simulink :-( Well, I tested Scicos a long time ago, but I found it quite
>>unusable.
>>
>>Javier
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 20:55:48 +1030
From: Paul Koufalas <***@senet.com.au>
To: Javier Arantegui <***@tecal.udl.es>
Subject: Re: Octave in Universities

Javier,

I found out about J-Sim (Simulink for Octave) some months ago but
haven't had a chance to evaluate it; check it out...

http://www.webeng.org/jsim.htm

Cheers
Paul.


Javier Arantegui wrote:

>Hello,
>
>El Martes, 14 de Marzo de 2006 18:20, Quentin Spencer escribió:
>
>
>>Yes, but don't you have to do the same thing in the Matlab GUI when you
>>forget the commands? I guess I agree with John on this--the GUI offers
>>some nice features, and for many applications it helps quite a bit for
>>beginners, but for Matlab/Octave, I don't see what difference a GUI
>>makes for learning the language.
>>
>>
>
>When I read the messages about the Matlab GUI, I thought you were talking
>about Simulink:
>http://www.mathworks.com/products/simulink/?BB=1
>
>I haven't used it, but it looks like a killer application. It makes using
>Matlab a complete different experience. There is no Free Software like
>Simulink :-( Well, I tested Scicos a long time ago, but I found it quite
>unusable.
>
>Javier
>
>
>





---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Christophe Prud'homme]

At EPFL, an association called poseidon (poseidon.epfl.ch),sponsored by the
school, is pushing the use of free software and octave in particular.
Matlab is used in many courses and among them the numerical analysis courses
taught by our chair. Poseidon has sponsored an effort to port one of our
course to octave and the associated book (that will have the title
"scientific computing with matlab and octave" by A. Quarteroni and F.
Saleri). Next September we start using and supporting octave in our courses.
There are other similar initiative in the school.

Best regards,
C.

[ Friday 10 March 2006 15:02 ]
| Recently spoke with a college prof who was using Matlab (edu version).
| I mentioned he might consider using octave since it was open source.
| He asked if there are many universities using octave. I said I would
| check with the list.
| I was under the impression that there were numerous universities
| using octave.
|
| There may even be a list on the web of universities using octave.
|
| If you know anything about this information let me know.
|
| Larry Blodgett
| ***@mac.com
|
|
|
| -------------------------------------------------------------
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|
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| Subscription information: http://www.octave.org/archive.html
| -------------------------------------------------------------

--
Christophe Prud'homme
EPFL SB IACS CMCS
MA B2 534 (Bâtiment MA)
Station 8
CH-1015 Lausanne
Tel: [phone]
Fax: [phone]



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[Henry F. Mollet]

I agree with M. I spent more than a day over a period of years trying to
learn 'vi' but I just don't get it. I can use it but everything takes me
about 10 x as long as it should. I humbly suggest that we should not have to
use 'vi' to be able to use octave. I anticipate that Emacs will be just as
difficult but I haven't tried it.

Smultron (little strawberry in Swedish) for Mac is an editor whose flavor I
like and that I was able to use without a learning curve.

Printing a plot using AquaTerm for Mac with pdf or eps options is the way
one should be able to do it in my opinion (without any hassle).
Henry


on 3/17/06 10:28 AM, Michael Creel at ***@uab.es wrote:

>
>
> Steve C. Thompson wrote:
>
>>
>> [soap box on]
>>
>> At one time, I used Matlab's GUI; and, yeah, it had
>> some features that were useful. I now use X windows
>> with multiple virtual desktops, Vim, terminal emulators
>> (Konsole), and so forth. In my view, the features
>> gained with this later approach largely outweigh the
>> features lost by ditching Matlab's GUI. So my message
>> to anyone who is hung up on Matlab's GUI is that there
>> is a much bigger world of great tools available. With
>> a little work, the return on investment is significant.
>>
>> Step 1: learn how to use *vi* or Emacs
>> Step 2: learn how to use X windows, virtual desktops
>> Step 3: use GNU Octave
>>
>> Of course, these steps are done in parallel and the
>> enjoyable process is continuous, never ending!
>>
>> [soap box off]
>>
>
> Looking at it from a newbie's point of view, you're asking them to do
> the most painful, steepest learning curve, less obviously productive
> stuff first, and the intrinsically interesting not-too difficult stuff
> last. Also, at a university, the potential users are mostly undergrad
> students who were born after the DOS prompt was starting to fade into
> the past. Making Octave work with a GUI, and making it really easy to
> plot and print graphs will help a lot in getting used. I hate to say it,
> but making it work with windows will have a bigger effect that any other
> factor. I'm constantly amazed with the trouble windows users will put up
> with, rather than invest in a day learning how to use KDE.
> M.
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> -------------------------------------------------------------
>




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